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Old 09-11-2006, 01:07 AM   #1
Wenrick
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Default Advanced VRS Questions

This is a question for Hadrubient, or anyone else who knows the ins and outs of VRS. I already have a base knowledge about how to import/export models and mport/export motions. I know all about texture objects, mesh objects, vertexes, edges, and so forth. Now that the jargan is out of the way, here's the question:

What exactly do the mesh object designations mean?

I'll give you an example: <LEG1-HIDE1-IVL1><SBOTH-H2LEG>

Here's what I know:

The first designation: I'm not really sure, even though I have the general impression that the first designation is somehow related to where the mesh object goes. I'm not sure if its somehow encoded so that the system knows that if its "BODY" that it connects to the head and legs. I don't really think its the case because I see a lot of "NONE" in the first designation, and it still somehow connects to the head and legs. I've never seen anything besides "BODY" and "NONE" on body mesh objects before so I don't know what would happen if you named it something else like "LEG1". And if the mesh object is a leg piece, what would happen if you combined a model and named the new one "LEG2" or 3 or 8?

The second designation: These are the hide values, and hide themselves under certain conditions when other objects overlap them. I'm really not sure the differences between 0, 1, 2, and so on. What do these mean? Does 0 hide objects with 1 and 2? Lower designations mean higher priority?

The third designation: This is where things get funky. In the above example we see IVL1. Personally, I've never seen any mesh object where the first two letters of this was not "IV". I'm about 99% sure that the third letter corresponds to the type of mesh object as well. For instance L=Leg, F=Face. On body meshes I always see the letter N (followed by the number zero, but it may be the letter O, I just can't tell), and I really can't tell why. Foot meshes will have L, but sometimes N. Hands will have H, but sometimes N. Headpieces , weapons, and body pieces are usually N. My best guess is that the N means "NONE" like in the first designation.

The last one is what boggles me though. What does the number stand for? Does it relate to the hide values? As far as I can tell, its nothing more than a differentiator to keep mesh objects seperate.

Now for the second group. There really doesn't seem to be any pattern to them. The most common designation is "SBOTH", but I have yet to understand exactly what this means. In the example above you see <SBOTH-H2LEG>, which is a leg mesh object because it says leg right in it. However on NPC's (which have a ton of mesh objects) I have seen H2FACE, H2SIDE, H2BACK, H2TOP, H2EYE, H2HAND, H2FOOT, and so on. But they all have SBOTH in front of them. Sometimes SBOTH is in all alone. I'm not exactly sure what H2 means, and I'd really like to know.

Now if we go to the Austere Robe we see this in the second group: <Body-SBOTH-H1HAND>. Now we're dealing with triples. Not only that, but now the number is 1 instead of 2 as before. What does that number mean? The Austere robe does overlap the hand dat just a little, so it may have something to do with telling the game some sort of instructions on how to deal with the current hand dat.

Why am I asking all these questions? Well I'm making a Viera mod (yes, its taking forever, but I'm going to make sure I do it right) and I may have to combine bits and pieces from several different models just to make it look right. I really don't want VRS to be combining mesh objects together during export, so I'd like to keep these objects seperate. But to accomplish that, I'll need to rename each mesh object. The last thing I want to do is royally screw something up. Basically I need to know if I can manipulate the names of these mesh objects without having my model become buggy or corrupted. A more complete understanding of these mesh objects will be the key to my success from this point forward.

I know this is a lofty question, but whatever info people can offer would be a huge help.

Thank you for your time.

- Wenny
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Old 09-11-2006, 11:09 AM   #2
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That's a big topic you're looking at Wenrick. I'm kinda curious about that myself, and about all I know is changing that HIDE value (acutally, I sorta randomly guessed on that which was changing the number after the "IV" if I remember correctly.) Well, randomly guessed isn't the right way to put it, I looked at the designation of one of the meshes that I knew had the same HIDE value I wanted.
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Old 09-11-2006, 12:49 PM   #3
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Hell... i cant find FFXI Tool on there cause its not on my "Tool" toolbar...

so.. cant help ya
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Old 09-11-2006, 01:51 PM   #4
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Haven't messed with the naming much to know more of what exactly they do. I can say though that they operator commands were the meshes can interact with eachother to cause gear appearance changes.

Basically there are a few commands in this to pay attention to:

Hide 0 = No Specification
Hide 1 = Is Displayed
Hide 2 = Hide (Lowest Priority)
Hide 3 = Hide (Mid Priority)
Hide 4 = Hide (Highest Priority)

In essence Hide 1, Hide 4, and Hide 0 are almost the same. Those 3 should display the object no matter what. Then you got:

None = Head | Hand item tag
Body = Body tag
Leg1 = Leg tag
Leg2 = Feet tag

These are supposed to be used in conjection with these commands:

IVNO = No Specification
IVF1 = Top forhead of face hide
IVF2 = Hair in back hide
IVF3 = Hair on side hide
IVF4 = Face hide
IVF5 = Eyes hide
IVHA = Hands hide
IVL1 = Legs hide
IVL2 = Feet hide

These last commands for other gear telling the system what to hide if it's worn. For example when you wear a robe, in the robe on the hood the last tag should have IVF2. The hood is saying that when it's loaded hide the hair in back. The IV commands are hide commands that overwrite the HIDE# set. Basically it's saying regardless of HIDE value you will always hide this section (Hide value should be set to 0 as well). It identifies the sections by the specific names as I gave above.

The specific names given above though are incomplete, as you see there are about 5 more hide commands then there are names.

Now the confusing part I'm sure people will be wondering is, "Ok, if IV hides then what is HIDE for?". Well HIDE is the polygon test one, when the system see's two polygons cross eachother it checks it's HIDE value to determine if I should be hidding anything. Ultimatly the best one to use if you know something shouldn't show up no matter what is the IV?? commands.

This should give the object better function and be less testing that the system has to do. When it uses the HIDE# function the system is constantly testing it to determine if the condition is still true or not. With IV?? command it knows right off that bat condition is never true.

This was the bug I had with Perih when her legs were not showing up, no matter what I changed they wouldn't show up. It was because that portion of the legs were set to IVL1, once I changed it to IVNO they showed up just fine. This is likely the error people are getting with the models head too, were they try to wear a crown it hides funky areas it wasn't suppose to.

It's likely a bad HIDE# and IV?? working together, this is were also the system could lock up, when you have HIDE1-4 and anything but IVNO on the same mesh that are effecting the same spot. What ends up happening is HIDE is telling it to show that section but IV?? is also telling it not to show it. That could easily confuse the system.

To add how I'd always interpreted it is that IV is abbreviated for "In-Visible". If that makes the commands have more rhyme and reason for you, so IVNO is saying "InVisible Nothing".

EDIT:

Lol, more to read I forgot to mention. The "SBOTH" is a tag VRS gives the object, most of these objects initially were Half Meshes. VRS calculates it and recreates as a whole mesh, so the SBOTH tag is identifying that there was two halves merged together making a whole mesh.

EDIT AGAIN:

Just to add I'm not entirely sure what teh H#HEAD, etc.. are indicating but if I had to guess I would say this is another way of tagging HIDE values. So [H#]<HEAD> breaks down to HIDE# and Object getting this new value HEAD.

Going with what I placed in the IV?? stuff and with this I could make a somewhat safe assumption that the Name tags are:

SIDE = Side Hairs tag
BACK = Hair in Back tag
TOP = Forhead tag
HANDS = Hands tag
FOOT = Alternate LEG2 tag
EYE = Eyes tag
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Old 09-11-2006, 03:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnkdinh
Hell... i cant find FFXI Tool on there cause its not on my "Tool" toolbar...

so.. cant help ya
This is likely because you don't have the right DirectX 9 version, get the version that is at www.credes.com (The creator of the VRS program stuff).
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Old 09-11-2006, 06:03 PM   #6
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Hmm, that's all good info, and it makes sense, but it can easily get confusing. Gotta wrap my head around that haha.

Anyway, lets see how I can apply this to what I'm doing. After thinking for a few minutes, I've come up with 2 options for me:

1) Get creative with the designations and hope that the different meshes don't interact with each other.

2) Allow VRS to combine meshes during export. I really don't see a big deal in making all the accessories in <NONE-HIDE0-IVNO><SBOTH> as long as they don't share any edges or vertices. (In metasequoia its called "joined face")

I think option 2 is probably the safest. I really don't want to screw something up by manipulating things incorrectly.

Thanks for that Mesh Objects 101 class. :o
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Old 09-11-2006, 06:17 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenrick
Hmm, that's all good info, and it makes sense, but it can easily get confusing. Gotta wrap my head around that haha.

Anyway, lets see how I can apply this to what I'm doing. After thinking for a few minutes, I've come up with 2 options for me:

1) Get creative with the designations and hope that the different meshes don't interact with each other.

2) Allow VRS to combine meshes during export. I really don't see a big deal in making all the accessories in <NONE-HIDE0-IVNO><SBOTH> as long as they don't share any edges or vertices. (In metasequoia its called "joined face")

I think option 2 is probably the safest. I really don't want to screw something up by manipulating things incorrectly.

Thanks for that Mesh Objects 101 class. :o
Yeah, Option 2 is the general basic you'll see most of the stuff set as. It gets names and such only if they have a special function they absolutly must do. Like a Helmet to hide the entire head. You'll see it have extra polygons on IVF1 thru IVF5 just to hide all the hair, eyes, and face.

If you don't want VRS to merge them, it's a little tricky to get VRS to do it how you want but rename the Textures. VRS will not merge meshes if they don't have the same Texture name.

--LOL, if anyone had noticed. Yes I goofed and instead of quoting Wenrick I accidentally went and edited his post and had put this in there-- :oops:
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Old 09-12-2006, 12:37 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadrubient
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenrick
Hmm, that's all good info, and it makes sense, but it can easily get confusing. Gotta wrap my head around that haha.

Anyway, lets see how I can apply this to what I'm doing. After thinking for a few minutes, I've come up with 2 options for me:

1) Get creative with the designations and hope that the different meshes don't interact with each other.

2) Allow VRS to combine meshes during export. I really don't see a big deal in making all the accessories in <NONE-HIDE0-IVNO><SBOTH> as long as they don't share any edges or vertices. (In metasequoia its called "joined face")

I think option 2 is probably the safest. I really don't want to screw something up by manipulating things incorrectly.

Thanks for that Mesh Objects 101 class. :o
Yeah, Option 2 is the general basic you'll see most of the stuff set as. It gets names and such only if they have a special function they absolutly must do. Like a Helmet to hide the entire head. You'll see it have extra polygons on IVF1 thru IVF5 just to hide all the hair, eyes, and face.

If you don't want VRS to merge them, it's a little tricky to get VRS to do it how you want but rename the Textures. VRS will not merge meshes if they don't have the same Texture name.

--LOL, if anyone had noticed. Yes I goofed and instead of quoting Wenrick I accidentally went and edited his post and had put this in there-- :oops:
I have seen meshes with more than 1 texture on it before, VRS will comine meshes that have seperate textures. I found this out while working on Saber's head mod for hume f. When I added the blue ribbon to the back of the head, it was combined with that mesh, and it has two different textures coming off of it.
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Old 09-12-2006, 01:04 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadrubient
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenrick
Hmm, that's all good info, and it makes sense, but it can easily get confusing. Gotta wrap my head around that haha.

Anyway, lets see how I can apply this to what I'm doing. After thinking for a few minutes, I've come up with 2 options for me:

1) Get creative with the designations and hope that the different meshes don't interact with each other.

2) Allow VRS to combine meshes during export. I really don't see a big deal in making all the accessories in <NONE-HIDE0-IVNO><SBOTH> as long as they don't share any edges or vertices. (In metasequoia its called "joined face")

I think option 2 is probably the safest. I really don't want to screw something up by manipulating things incorrectly.

Thanks for that Mesh Objects 101 class. :o
Yeah, Option 2 is the general basic you'll see most of the stuff set as. It gets names and such only if they have a special function they absolutly must do. Like a Helmet to hide the entire head. You'll see it have extra polygons on IVF1 thru IVF5 just to hide all the hair, eyes, and face.

If you don't want VRS to merge them, it's a little tricky to get VRS to do it how you want but rename the Textures. VRS will not merge meshes if they don't have the same Texture name.

--LOL, if anyone had noticed. Yes I goofed and instead of quoting Wenrick I accidentally went and edited his post and had put this in there-- :oops:
I have seen meshes with more than 1 texture on it before, VRS will comine meshes that have seperate textures. I found this out while working on Saber's head mod for hume f. When I added the blue ribbon to the back of the head, it was combined with that mesh, and it has two different textures coming off of it.
Well it isn't an exact rule of thumb, but in that case it's still possible. Just you have to do a lot in VRS to get it to do that. It's similar with the 3 Knives with the juggling mithra, she had the same thing happening. not exactly sure still what it was but something in how VRS saves it makes some sort of tag that keeps it from combining again on a 2nd save.
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Old 09-15-2006, 11:54 AM   #10
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Okay, time for some real life application. I'm currently working on a project and found that one of the body meshes hides the top of the gloves. I think the one that is currently set to <BODY-HIDE2-IVNO><Body-SBOTH-H1HAND> is the troublemaker. I'm not sure exactly how to change it so that it shows the top half of the gloves. Not just 1 set, but about 99% of all gloves have the top hidden. The top half of the one I'm currently using is set to <NONE-HIDE0-IVHA><Hand-SBOTH-H2HAND>.

I think that's enough information to come to a conclusion. Help would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 09-15-2006, 12:49 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenrick
Okay, time for some real life application. I'm currently working on a project and found that one of the body meshes hides the top of the gloves. I think the one that is currently set to <BODY-HIDE2-IVNO><Body-SBOTH-H1HAND> is the troublemaker. I'm not sure exactly how to change it so that it shows the top half of the gloves. Not just 1 set, but about 99% of all gloves have the top hidden. The top half of the one I'm currently using is set to <NONE-HIDE0-IVHA><Hand-SBOTH-H2HAND>.

I think that's enough information to come to a conclusion. Help would be greatly appreciated.
Intresting thing is I don't recall the nude body having that setting. The body equipment you have on there is it just alpha mapping out the arms, so the polygons are still there? If that is the case it's probably easier and less a hassle to just remove those polygons.

Like I said before I haven't messed with those a whole lot yet, only have 1 sample that I played briefly on and collected most of the info I provided from it and from the credes website.

If I'm reading it right the top part of the gloves is saying to Hide Hands and Hands are set to Hide level 2. The body part comes along though sets itself at Hide level 2 and sets Hands to Hide level 1. So in the end from what I know so far it looks likes it's saying:

Hands always hide
Hands hide level 1
Body hide level 2

Starting to think credes' website on this isn't as reliable as I was hoping, because that setting does not make sense according to how that site says it functions. It almost looks like IVHA is setting which should hide then the hide level is the order (Like a tab order) in which to process the data for it's checks.

So during load it would process hands first then check if they hide, would have nothing then checks body and checks again for hide and then triggers the hide and since hands are set to always hide that section ends up hidding. If that's how it's working then changing body to any of these seems like it should work:

<BODY-HIDE2-IVNO><Body-SBOTH-H0HAND> (Turning off hand check)
<BODY-HIDE2-IVNO><Body-SBOTH-H3HAND> (Hand check comes after body so body polygons don't interfere)
<BODY-HIDE2-IVNO><Body-SBOTH-H4HAND> (Hand check comes after body so body polygons don't interfere)
<BODY-HIDE2-IVNO><Body-SBOTH> (Hand check is never processesed)

Don't know best I can provide is some educated guesses till I actually toy around with it more and figure it out. That's probably the biggest pain of all the different x86 programs and structures people will take from them, is figuring out how that languages format works. :x

EDIT:

Yeah, with Perih's model all I had to care about what how that model acted. Not how if I switched other legs parts in or out so on her changing IVL1 to IVNO was the easiest to get what was needed done. That with PC gears though got learn the relation of the IV?? commands and the Hide better to figure out.
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Old 09-15-2006, 07:10 PM   #12
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Got some interesting info for you. And its not exactly good news.

<BODY-HIDE2-IVNO><Body-SBOTH-H0HAND> (Turning off hand check) - Didn't work, so I tried...
<BODY-HIDE2-IVNO><Body-SBOTH> (Hand check is never processesed) - That didn't work either. So then I tried...
<BODY-HIDE2-IVNO><SBOTH> - And that didn't work either. So I figured pretty much that it was the "HIDE2" that was screwing things up.

So I changed it to <BODY-HIDE1-IVNO><SBOTH-H1HAND> (For some reason, VRS automatically got rid of the "Body" in the second group when I exported.)

It worked. Looks like we both learned something new about hide values today.

By the way, the <BODY-HIDE1-IVNO><SBOTH-H1HAND> wasn't the sotai skin mesh like you had assumed, it was the Seer's Tunic. The bare arms must have fooled you, the front area must not have drawn your eye. :wink:
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Old 09-15-2006, 07:22 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenrick
Got some interesting info for you. And its not exactly good news.

<BODY-HIDE2-IVNO><Body-SBOTH-H0HAND> (Turning off hand check) - Didn't work, so I tried...
<BODY-HIDE2-IVNO><Body-SBOTH> (Hand check is never processesed) - That didn't work either. So then I tried...
<BODY-HIDE2-IVNO><SBOTH> - And that didn't work either. So I figured pretty much that it was the "HIDE2" that was screwing things up.

So I changed it to <BODY-HIDE1-IVNO><SBOTH-H1HAND> (For some reason, VRS automatically got rid of the "Body" in the second group when I exported.)

It worked. Looks like we both learned something new about hide values today.

By the way, the <BODY-HIDE1-IVNO><SBOTH-H1HAND> wasn't the sotai skin mesh like you had assumed, it was the Seer's Tunic. The bare arms must have fooled you, the front area must not have drawn your eye. :wink:
Probably got rid of it because technically the second Body message is just repetative info. Still can't recall the Seer's tunic having bare arms like that. Think I'll have to look at it again. >.>

Still testing to try, I'm curious what would of happened with:

<BODY-HIDE2-IVNO><Body-SBOTH-H3HAND>
<BODY-HIDE2-IVNO><Body-SBOTH-H4HAND>
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Old 09-15-2006, 07:27 PM   #14
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That's all you can say? Haha, I fixed it myself. You should be embarassed. lol

No I'm just joking with you. I guess we both still have much to learn.
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Old 09-15-2006, 07:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenrick
That's all you can say? Haha, I fixed it myself. You should be embarassed. lol

No I'm just joking with you. I guess we both still have much to learn.
Ehh, I said I was only working on collected knowledge and 1 sample. More samples I get and test out the better I can answer how the hide values work. Learning the hide values is on my list of to do's, comes with the planned section of trying to making PC models that'll have crotch areas with patches that match their hair color.
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Old 09-18-2006, 08:59 PM   #16
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I know this thread is getting kinda old, but I found this on the VRS website.
http://www.credes.com/us/product/80/ffxivisible.html
It explains about this stuff a bit, and it's coming from the original author, so it better be correct. :P
Edit: Also this page...
http://www.credes.com/us/product/80/ffxiisvisible.html
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Old 09-18-2006, 09:42 PM   #17
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That information would be so useful . . . if I could only understand it. Its so difficult to wrap my head around Engrish ( ♥ http://www.engrish.com/ ♥ ). If that page wasn't in broken english it may be of more use to us. I've read it 3 times and its still confusing as hell.
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Old 09-18-2006, 09:49 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenrick
That information would be so useful . . . if I could only understand it. Its so difficult to wrap my head around Engrish ( ♥ http://www.engrish.com/ ♥ ). If that page wasn't in broken english it may be of more use to us. I've read it 3 times and its still confusing as hell.
Yeah, I know it's very poor English. Anyways, I noticed something interesting... according to that site, you can open .dats of the zones.
I decided to test this out and here is the result... :o Btw, I deleted some things before taking this pic... namely the "sky." Apparently there is a sorta hemisphere making up the sky and there are several layers of that depending on the weather (like sunny, cloudy, night time.)
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