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Old 07-19-2008, 07:17 PM   #1
RandomNumberGenerator
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Default MMO class idea.

I wanted input on an idea I had. See, all MMOs have some sort of job or class system. Most, like WoW or AoC, have a class you pick when you make your character. FFXI has a job system, which allows for further customization and adaptability then just being "Class X" and "Class Y". But I was thinking, what if there was a game that scrapped the class system entirely?

Several games have various ability trees connected to a class. By picking what new abilities or traits you want when you level, you can specialize your character to an extent. But I was thinking, what if instead of having say, 10 classes with 3 trees each, what if there was one class, with 10 trees? Each tree would focus on a certain aspect. For example, you could have a Combat(Strength) tree, a Skill(Dexterity) tree, an Evasion(Agility) tree, and an Endurance(Defense) tree. In addition, you would have Healing Magic , Destruction Magic, Support Magic(Buffs and Debuffs) , Dark Magic, and Arcane Magic trees. Maybe throw in some special trees, like Soul Power that could boost magic resistance and grant some chakra-type abilities to melee jobs.

With this system, players don't need to pick a class. They can be whatever they want to be. A holy paladin could invest heavily in Endurance and Soul, with some minor abilities in Strength and Skill. A powerful summoner could invest in Dark and Arcane magic to gain access to all of the manifestations, while an evil mage could invest into Destruction and Dark magic to get a wide variety of harmful spells and access to some of the more malvolent entities. A healer could invest into Healing and Arcane for the opposite effect, or into Healing, Support Magic, and Soul Power for a more group-oriented set up.
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Old 07-19-2008, 07:36 PM   #2
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So like Titan Quest.
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Old 07-19-2008, 07:52 PM   #3
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Hmm... kind of, I guess. I never heard of Titan Quest until you just mentioned it, but that only allows two trees, with this you could potentially invest into all 10 and bring a new meaning to "jack of all trades, master of none". But in the long run, yeah, kind of like that.
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Old 07-19-2008, 07:56 PM   #4
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Wow, i like the idea of that. It would allow me to combine my two favorite things... ranger classes and healer classes. I would spend my points in range points primarily, then healing, then whatever tree would allow me to bind/slow enemies for kiting purposes.

Would be fun, never a healing-range job in games that i've played. I mean, elves are supposed to be magical critters arent they? And they're often in novels/movies quite adept with bows too.
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Old 07-19-2008, 08:04 PM   #5
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Really the only problem would be balance. If the skills aren't perfectly balanced there would be two or three cookie cutter setups pretty fast. If someone invests fully into a combat tree, they should be evenly matched against someone who splits between 4 or 5 trees assuming level and gear are equal. It would come down to player skill which is really quite difficult to guarantee with cookie cutters, unless it's two cookie cutters fighting.
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Old 07-19-2008, 08:05 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalana
Wow, i like the idea of that. It would allow me to combine my two favorite things... ranger classes and healer classes. I would spend my points in range points primarily, then healing, then whatever tree would allow me to bind/slow enemies for kiting purposes.

Would be fun, never a healing-range job in games that i've played. I mean, elves are supposed to be magical critters arent they? And they're often in novels/movies quite adept with bows too.
Exactly! With this system you can have an almost infinite amount of "classes". You could be good, evil, or just plain power-hungry. With the above ranged/healer class, you could roleplay a woodsman with medicinal knowledge, or a ranger who prays to spirits.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachiel
Really the only problem would be balance. If the skills aren't perfectly balanced there would be two or three cookie cutter setups pretty fast. If someone invests fully into a combat tree, they should be evenly matched against someone who splits between 4 or 5 trees assuming level and gear are equal. It would come down to player skill which is really quite difficult to guarantee with cookie cutters, unless it's two cookie cutters fighting.
You are right about the balance problem. But players will need to split their skills at least a little, because if you went full Combat, you would get our classic "Dark Knight" scenario, where you throw a boulder at the ground and miss. If you invested into Skill and Combat, you would end up doing a lot of damage, but taking a lot as well.

I think the melee trees will balance themselves out pretty well. The problem is balancing out the magic skills...
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Old 07-19-2008, 08:11 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachiel
Really the only problem would be balance. If the skills aren't perfectly balanced there would be two or three cookie cutter setups pretty fast. If someone invests fully into a combat tree, they should be evenly matched against someone who splits between 4 or 5 trees assuming level and gear are equal. It would come down to player skill which is really quite difficult to guarantee with cookie cutters, unless it's two cookie cutters fighting.
Make the trees contain passives that allow them to use certain gear... Like the best axes would only be able to be used by people who invest certain amounts of points into strength trees and such, bows for agility type things probably. The higher you are, the better access you get. Like, say everyone can wield any type of weapon... but each weapon would have ranks... so if you have a level 50 rank 1 weapon, anyone could use it... but if you had a level 50 rank 5 weapon, only people with access to rank 5 wielding passive could, and it would be way more powerful than the rank 1 type.
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Old 07-19-2008, 08:18 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalana
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachiel
Really the only problem would be balance. If the skills aren't perfectly balanced there would be two or three cookie cutter setups pretty fast. If someone invests fully into a combat tree, they should be evenly matched against someone who splits between 4 or 5 trees assuming level and gear are equal. It would come down to player skill which is really quite difficult to guarantee with cookie cutters, unless it's two cookie cutters fighting.
Make the trees contain passives that allow them to use certain gear... Like the best axes would only be able to be used by people who invest certain amounts of points into strength trees and such, bows for agility type things probably. The higher you are, the better access you get. Like, say everyone can wield any type of weapon... but each weapon would have ranks... so if you have a level 50 rank 1 weapon, anyone could use it... but if you had a level 50 rank 5 weapon, only people with access to rank 5 wielding passive could, and it would be way more powerful than the rank 1 type.
Yeah, and it would relate to stats as well. Someone with high Combat, but low Skill will do a lot of damage, if they hit. Split between Skill and Combat, and you will dish out the damage - and take it as well. Use Soul, Endurance, Agility, Combat, and Skill, and you will have all the based covered. You just won't be very good in any of them.

I was thinking about that tree/equipment idea myself. I was thinking heavy weapons such as axes, greatswords, and hammers would use mostly Combat, standard swords would be split between Combat and Skill. Daggers would be based mostly on Skill, and Bows would be split between Agility and Strength. Shields and armor would be based on Endurance, and to a much lesser extent, Combat. Throwing Knifes and Darts would be based on Skill and Agility.

Then with magic, Healing would heal and remove debuffs, in addition to some holy-based attacks. The more you invest in Healing, the stronger and quicker your Heals become. Arcane would allow the summoning of elemental spirits on earlier levels, and once you invest heavily, pacts with ancient gods. Dark would revolve around debuffs and damaging curses, with more evil spirits being able to be summoned at higher levels. Stuff like that.
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Old 07-19-2008, 08:44 PM   #9
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Sounds cool, it's just a shame we probably won't see something like this in an MMO :(

Good ideas are scarce in gaming. If they don't meet the board of directors tastes, they get thrown out. That's why there's usually a standard for each type of game... Then they may throw in one or two smaller innovative things at a time because they know "this idea sells" so they don't change it a whole lot at once. I don't see why people like first person shooter games so much.. They're basically all the same, just with a different linear-story, and different weapons with maybe a few exceptions.
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Old 07-19-2008, 09:14 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalana
Sounds cool, it's just a shame we probably won't see something like this in an MMO :(

Good ideas are scarce in gaming. If they don't meet the board of directors tastes, they get thrown out. That's why there's usually a standard for each type of game... Then they may throw in one or two smaller innovative things at a time because they know "this idea sells" so they don't change it a whole lot at once. I don't see why people like first person shooter games so much.. They're basically all the same, just with a different linear-story, and different weapons with maybe a few exceptions.
I know. It's sad. I would really like to see a game that deviates from everything. For example, using a minigame-based crafting system instead of grinding-based systems.
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Old 07-19-2008, 09:17 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomNumberGenerator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalana
Sounds cool, it's just a shame we probably won't see something like this in an MMO :(

Good ideas are scarce in gaming. If they don't meet the board of directors tastes, they get thrown out. That's why there's usually a standard for each type of game... Then they may throw in one or two smaller innovative things at a time because they know "this idea sells" so they don't change it a whole lot at once. I don't see why people like first person shooter games so much.. They're basically all the same, just with a different linear-story, and different weapons with maybe a few exceptions.
I know. It's sad. I would really like to see a game that deviates from everything. For example, using a minigame-based crafting system instead of grinding-based systems.
Go go stargate worlds! Where you can level up by working aboard a spaceship and maintaining them via mini-games instead of grinding non-stop!
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Old 07-19-2008, 10:54 PM   #12
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mabinogi is sort of similar... there are no classes, you learn different skills based on quest-like lessons, scrolls, or from opponents.. you can master everything, if you want to grind enough. there aren't really skill trees or anything, but you do get ability points based on leveling up and aging up that you use to rank up different skills to use them more effectively.
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:10 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aidenraine
mabinogi is sort of similar... there are no classes, you learn different skills based on quest-like lessons, scrolls, or from opponents.. you can master everything, if you want to grind enough. there aren't really skill trees or anything, but you do get ability points based on leveling up and aging up that you use to rank up different skills to use them more effectively.
See, I don't like the idea of mastering everything. I prefer either to specialize, or become a jack of all trades, master of none. Being a jack of all trades, master of all just seems... wrong to me.
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:54 AM   #14
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There are already games like these, stop playing only the mainstream games lol :P
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:15 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Xhokhusmak
There are already games like these, stop playing only the mainstream games lol :P
Care to point me in the direction of a few? Of the two mentioned in this thread, one isn't an MMO and the other I don't really like the system.
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:15 PM   #16
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Ultima Online did this - but honestly it was a horrid game and extremely unbalanced
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Old 07-20-2008, 04:49 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomNumberGenerator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xhokhusmak
There are already games like these, stop playing only the mainstream games lol :P
Care to point me in the direction of a few? Of the two mentioned in this thread, one isn't an MMO and the other I don't really like the system.
The single most prominent example of what you want is Guild Wars. Why don't you check it out? There are around, I think 10 classes, which you can have subclasses like ffxi. But each class has some ~200 skills, making a total of around 400 skills available to you, all doing something very different. Stats are allocated to specifically boost a certain category of your skills, and you can change your "stats" at any time. You get to bring 8 skills into mission or pvp. The beautiful part of this game is that even with so many different things going on, the dev team's very first priority would be balance, and they do it quite well. You can look into it for more details. Yes, this does include "Ranger/Healer" that Lalana wanted. Heck infact you can even branch off into "Ranger/AgressiveHealer", but that gets a little complicated. :P
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Old 07-20-2008, 05:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xhokhusmak
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomNumberGenerator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xhokhusmak
There are already games like these, stop playing only the mainstream games lol :P
Care to point me in the direction of a few? Of the two mentioned in this thread, one isn't an MMO and the other I don't really like the system.
The single most prominent example of what you want is Guild Wars. Why don't you check it out? There are around, I think 10 classes, which you can have subclasses like ffxi. But each class has some ~200 skills, making a total of around 400 skills available to you, all doing something very different. Stats are allocated to specifically boost a certain category of your skills, and you can change your "stats" at any time. You get to bring 8 skills into mission or pvp. The beautiful part of this game is that even with so many different things going on, the dev team's very first priority would be balance, and they do it quite well. You can look into it for more details. Yes, this does include "Ranger/Healer" that Lalana wanted. Heck infact you can even branch off into "Ranger/AgressiveHealer", but that gets a little complicated. :P
It's not the same. I played guild wars for quite a while. You can use the not-so-good monk abilities if youre subbing it... And it's not at all what he meant. Guild wars only allows you 1 main class, and 1 sub class. What he's talking about is the total lack of an actual class system. All you have is your character and 5 different trees. You put as many points in the trees you want to put them in, making your own unique character. This would mean you could be 3 jobs instead of 1, or 2, you'd just be weaker at all 3 than if you specialized in one. Guild wars has classes. You pick what class your character will be, from there you select a sub class... which you have limited abilities from... Totally different concepts... As the suggested one has no existing "classes."
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Old 07-20-2008, 05:22 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalana
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xhokhusmak
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomNumberGenerator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xhokhusmak
There are already games like these, stop playing only the mainstream games lol :P
Care to point me in the direction of a few? Of the two mentioned in this thread, one isn't an MMO and the other I don't really like the system.
The single most prominent example of what you want is Guild Wars. Why don't you check it out? There are around, I think 10 classes, which you can have subclasses like ffxi. But each class has some ~200 skills, making a total of around 400 skills available to you, all doing something very different. Stats are allocated to specifically boost a certain category of your skills, and you can change your "stats" at any time. You get to bring 8 skills into mission or pvp. The beautiful part of this game is that even with so many different things going on, the dev team's very first priority would be balance, and they do it quite well. You can look into it for more details. Yes, this does include "Ranger/Healer" that Lalana wanted. Heck infact you can even branch off into "Ranger/AgressiveHealer", but that gets a little complicated. :P
It's not the same. I played guild wars for quite a while. You can use the not-so-good monk abilities if youre subbing it... And it's not at all what he meant. Guild wars only allows you 1 main class, and 1 sub class. What he's talking about is the total lack of an actual class system. All you have is your character and 5 different trees. You put as many points in the trees you want to put them in, making your own unique character. This would mean you could be 3 jobs instead of 1, or 2, you'd just be weaker at all 3 than if you specialized in one. Guild wars has classes. You pick what class your character will be, from there you select a sub class... which you have limited abilities from... Totally different concepts... As the suggested one has no existing "classes."
There is one in mind, but it has since been closed down due to an extremely low playerbase :) Neocron. Hahahahahahahahahaha
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Old 08-14-2008, 12:58 PM   #20
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Well, not much in the way of overly specific things have been released yet about the game, but according to their site Champions Online might be along the lines of what you're looking for.
I've been keeping tabs on it and they say you'll basically be building your power set up from scratch, that you'll be able to choose any in the game as long as you have enough of a certain kind of points. I also believe they said you'll be upgrading your own STR|DEX|VIT etc. using other points as well. Also also, the character customization's going to be pretty insane (right down to body proportions, customizing power colors, stances, and possibly power emission points), and the art style's pretty cool.
It's going to be superhero-themed, so I'm not sure how much that'll appeal to you, but the game has a ton of potential if executed and balanced right.

If you're interested, check out www.champions-online.com. I'd encourage reading all the 'Ask Cryptic' announcements in their archive, that should give you a good idea of what to expect from what they've released so far. For a better idea of the actual gameplay, they have a few links to gameplay demos they gave to various gaming sites on their site as well.
If superheroing isn't your thing though, then ignore me I guess. haha

Hope this helps. ^^;
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